Career Warrior Podcast #312) Brave Choices, New Destinations: The Power of Career Change | Clara Chorley

Episode Transcript

Clara Chorley 0:00
When I was asking people, “What would be a dream for you?”

“Well, I’d like a more fulfilling job.”

I’m like, “That’s good. We can start there.”

“I’d like to be respected for my skill set.”

“Great. Let’s start with that.”

Chris Villanueva 0:17
And welcome to the Let’s Eat, Grandma Career Warrior Podcast, where our goal is not only to help you land your dream job, but to help you live your best life.

Today’s episode is for the brave professional who wants to make a change in their career. Oh my gosh, if you are feeling like some sort of change is coming in your life or you want to make a change, then you need to listen to this episode, because we’re going to be covering some important considerations for career change, and how to even think about where you want to go next. So many individuals are fighting just to get out of the position that they’re in right now, and moving to that next position is not so easy.

Now, the guest for today is somebody who can deliver, I think follow through on this topic, better than anyone else I can imagine – Her name is Clara Chorley, and she’s an old friend of mine and a partner here at Let’s Eat, Grandma. I actually met her in 2017 in a really cold, New York winter and she just knows her stuff. And she’s a well respected career coach in the space. Clara believes that brave decisions are the pathway to the lives we want to live in the professional success we dream of.

Since 2009, Claire has been a highly impactful Career Strategist, thought partner, and trauma informed personal coach, she helps leaders in the business world untethered from habits and environments that are wearing them out and take control of their careers and health. Claire’s unique international background spans from five continents and 48 countries, she’s well traveled, and she has supported professionals from a multitude of industries and humanitarian startup and fortune 100 organizations. Clara is a TEDx presenter, author of TURN: 4 Steps to Clarity in your Career, and creator of the 5D Framework for navigating career change.

So in this episode, which we have just recorded, I’ll tell you this conversation was invigorating, because we not only discuss what is needed to make that career change, and it’s live bravery. And it’s a lot of courage to take that next step. But what are some of those financial perhaps considerations that you need to think about? And really, is this next move you’re looking to make? Is it just a fleeting desire? Or is it something that you really are called to do and you should do without a doubt, full competence steam ahead, so I will waste no more time and dive right into this episode. But I encourage you as a listener, to go back and repeat elements of this episode, especially if that resonated with you, and to connect with both Claire and myself on LinkedIn. We would love to know that you’ve listened to this episode. Without further ado, here’s Episode 312 of the Career Warrior Podcast. Clara, welcome to the show. Welcome back, I should say,

Clara Chorley 3:14
Thank you really excited about our conversation today about bravery.

Chris Villanueva 3:19
I’m so excited to we receive so many intake questionnaires for people who are wanting to make some sort of change in their life, folks who want a very quick resume turnover, and putting a lot of thought into where you’re headed next. I don’t think people are doing especially those who are coming for their resume advice, things like that. So can you first of all speak to the importance of knowing where you’re headed next. And then we’ll talk about bravery, which I think is a really exciting theme here.

Clara Chorley 3:47
The importance of knowing where you’re heading next. I think if you get most people that are looking to live lives, where they feel like themselves, where they feel some ease and some contentment, we’re societally ravaged right at home, by loneliness, by anxiety, by sort of flailing around and just grabbing things, especially with the professional climate that everyone’s swimming and right now everyone’s affected by to varying degrees. Clarity of your own part is like this little island of sanity amidst this chaos. It’s important for your peace of mind, for your heart for your relationships. And it’s not an easy thing to do. I mean, you get people coming to you all the time.

They come to me sometimes as well via Let’s Eat, Grandma, “I just gotta get a resume out that you know,” and I ended up I know, some of you, a team ends up in the conversation about well, “Okay, but what are we driving the resume towards, like, what is it you want? And there’s this default to well, okay, what did I do last time? Or what are the things that have been paid for what you know? Yes, put it around those skills.” But then we end up with a really high percentage of people back in the same job that they wanted out of in the first place. Back in the same environment with that same toxic boss. See all that same uncooperative team member or work that is just in very, very boring. And that affects everything across the board in our lives. And I think this idea of clarity has become, I’m giving you a very long winded answer. I think this idea of clarity has become overly complicated. Like, I’ve got to know exactly what it is, or I’ve got to notice that people avoided I’m not clear and I’m desperate, right? I’m not clear, and I’m afraid. But to be clear enough is really important. You don’t have to have this exact thing. It’s a really tough question to ask, because I think it’s really about sort of quality of life.

Chris Villanueva 5:33
Right? It’s important to because like, and you’ve heard this before, a bunch of times people know what they’re running away from. It’s like, I know that I was running away from a crazy, hectic lifestyle where my scheduled hours were all over the place. I love my restaurant manager job that I held in years past. Some people know that they don’t like the instability of a sales position that they’re in. They don’t like the commission-only structure. But it’s like, what do you want? And where are you headed towards? And those are the things that end up making your LinkedIn profile your resume, and they come across in the interview too. So the clarity piece is so important. So I think it’s an important one to open up with. But as I have to ask, because you’ve emailed me about this earlier, and I have to hear, I would love to hear some of your story here. But how does bravery, this theme of bravery, fall into knowing where you’re headed next, and career clarity? What is this piece?

Clara Chorley 6:31
So most of us are born into or find ourselves in environments, and that could be the environment in the home or in our communities in our workplaces. And there’s sort of the external environment and the internal environment. So I’m going to share a little bit of my own story just for a second. I was born in Birmingham in England. And by the time I hit my teenage years, and I was facing my exams–so in England, there two exams and 16 and 18–I failed my 16 year old exams. And then miserably my father made me retake a couple of them. And then I failed them when I was 18 yeard old and that was a big deal. Because in England at that time, what was presented to me societally within my family, and certainly within my community and my school, was you pass these exams–that’s baseline–the better you do with these exams, the better the university, once you’re at university, you get your degree, then you get married, then you have children, then you accumulate wealth, and then you retire. And then you go get on a cruise, or you go travel somewhere. And then and there’s a dog and a cat in there somewhere. So that was the trajectory. And that was the version of success that I was presented with.

But I’m reaching my late teens and I’ve got a raging eating disorder. I’m binge drinking on the weekends trying to cope. I’m drowning in anxiety, I had no clue who I am, I can’t even get through basic exam. So I’m really questioning my own intelligence, and I was getting worse and worse and worse. So the environment I was born into, and the life was I was told I was meant to live didn’t somehow fit within me, I was like, “even if I want that I’m not equipped for it. Because I’m all over the place.” I tried a few jobs. And then I finally moved myself out of Birmingham and down to London, which was a massive change. And then from London, and this is a very shortened story, I took a flight to Honolulu. A year later, I never went back to England.

Now that sounds like, “Wow, that’s a tough choice.” But culturally, climate wise, everything. Nobody, it’s the most isolated landmass on the planet. So yes, it’s beautiful, and took a lot of courage for me to stay there and rebuild myself and get on my own healing journey. I’m sharing the story because the life I was born into and what happened to me within it, the environment, I was born into what was expected of me and who I was didn’t match. And when that’s the case, you can’t move forward. And it takes a lot of bravery to say “no” to what your family wants, a view to what society tells you, you should be as a man or as a woman. In America, we’ve got this very corporate landscape, the ladder climbing. This is what success looks like, this is what a successful person looks like dresses, like acts like sounds like. And if that’s not you, but you’re trying to do that you’re not going to have success.

So it really takes bravery to look at your own internal environment and go, “well who am I in the context of this? And what are those choices?” We can’t do that alone. Because mostly we’re swimming in the waters of what we’ve been told to if you want to get clear, you need a mirror, we need to help one another get clear, expecting to get clear about something we’ve never seen inside ourselves or outside in the world isn’t bad, too much. So we need to support one another in listening and in coaching and in therapy and in any of the spaces where somebody can help you figure out what it is that you want, because it’s there, and then it’ll open up a pathway for you and I promise you that is the case for everybody.

Chris Villanueva 9:53
Thank you for sharing your personal story. I think that stuff is amazing and serves as a great example for job seekers. You know job seekers who, you know, just by looking at a lot of it–I look at a lot of resumes every single day–a lot of those folks have perhaps career gaps because they’re taking time away from their space, or they’re taking some time to figure out where they’re going next. And there’s so many different reasons why a someone might have a career gap, or someone might be making some sort of change. Some of it can be a geographic, some of it can be really deep and internal. And yeah, I think the bravery piece is something that I haven’t I think spoken enough about on this podcast, because it’s not so easy to make a change like that when there are all these internal things going on right now. So I mean, this is probably a whole different episode, you can stop me if we need to move on to another one here. But how do I begin to cultivate bravery, if it’s something that’s so essential for these changes that we have to be making?

Clara Chorley 10:48
It’s such a good question. And there’s no cookie cutter response to this. It’s very, very personal. To me as an example, for some people, the first next brave step is looking at their financial situation. The first step–the first next brave step–like going and looking at what do they owe? What are the bills they haven’t paid? How much do they actually have? Money is a place that stops people, sometimes you need to get into the next job. Actually, I had a client, who was married and had two kids, wanted to move into more social justice space, her and her husband had accumulated a lot of wealth. And she wants to take a pay cut so that she could do something a little fulfilling, and he’s like,

“No, we’ve got this wealth goal.”

She’s like, “We’ve already met it.”

And he’s like, “No, we haven’t, here are the numbers.”

And she wasn’t able to do that, so she went to a financial planner, she looked at their situation, she came back, she made a spreadsheet, and she presented it to him. And then they had a conversation and they made some different decisions. But she made some different decisions based on knowledge and where she wanted how the she wanted to support her family. So the next brave step may be, “I’m really in the dark, and I’m stuck and I need to get help.” The next brave step may be, “I’ve got to get out of denial about the fact that I need to make a change. I’ve got to stop pretending this is okay.” The next brave step may be, “I’ve got to stop trying to make my Manager hear me because this is never going to happen. I’ve been trying this for a year, two years, five years, it’s not happening. I’m going to put it down, I gotta find a new way through here.” The next brave step may be, “I’m gonna stick this out another six months because it’s hard, but I’m growing.” So it’s really, really personal. But it’s usually that bravery lies in the places where we most feel this combination of fear and excitement.

Chris Villanueva 12:28
Earlier, we talked about like, right before we recorded this, my second fantasy, which I’ve kind of laid out on this podcast multiple times of doing music even more. I think the financial piece falls into that what you just brought up about finances getting that in a place, it’s like, you can’t just go out and make a full income on it unless you’re getting millions of streams, things like that. But is it really what I want? And I told you, “Yes and no,” I said, “Yes. Because it’s exciting. It’s something that I love doing something. I’m super passionate, but also no, because perhaps it’s a form of escapism because sometimes I just want to get out there and live the adventure in my life and experience sounds and things that are exciting to me that I may not feel on a daily basis.” So my question to you, given this quirky little music example would be like, “How do I distinguish between a fleeting desire and something that may be a form of escapism, or something that I need to move to?” I need to cultivate this bravery and say, “Heck, yeah, let’s do it.”

Clara Chorley 13:29
Yeah, I love that. I love that. It’s a swing and around about for many people, one of the things that I do in the five different way that we’ll get to, is discerning true needs from escape fantasies. And you’re really saying to me, like, “I’ve got this music idea. Is it true? Is it not true?” I mean, the second I say, “Is that what you want?” You go, “Yes and no.” Then I know that it’s “no,” right. Because there’s knowing that you’re not so hidden about it, and I think we get certain about about things. But generally, the flavor of it, right? Because we chase things because of how we’re going to feel. And if you have, on your hardest days in the office, the the musician idea like, “Oh my God, that would feel so great. I’ll just be strumming away at my guitar, I’ll be singing people in the audience are going to be happy, right? Beer, free beer. I’m gonna be welcomed places. I’m going to play a guitar out at events,” then some days, your brain’s gonna go, “Okay.” But this is also a business. Do I want to do the business side of it? Right. You know, it’s like, if you do become an entrepreneur, you can’t just write and that’s intricately connected with it. So that’s one way to sort of bring your feet back down to the ground. If you want to be an entrepreneur, delivering the service is this much and the rest of it is business building. As you know, and as I know, I can’t just coach I have to market and brand. I had to put myself out there. Yes, you’ve really got to love that side of it. You can’t be a concert pianist unless you love the practice and the failure and the mess of it as well love it enough. Love it enough that you can keep going through it. I want to add this because this is really important.

We have an epidemic of as I mentioned earlier, right? depression, addiction. There’s a lot of suffering going on. Bravery, I believe is an antidote to that. So the braver we are in our lives, the more I say the thing, even though I’m afraid, the more you take a step, even though I’m afraid, the more I’m lined up with what’s really true for me, and I do it in manageable steps. You know, I’m not a cliff jumper. I don’t believe in cliff jumping. For most people, we do baby steps, the more we take those baby steps, we get out of the relationship that doesn’t work, we start to really look at our career situation and see if we’re clear the grave we are in our lives. The more energy we have, the more creative we are, the more resilient we are. So then from that place, of “I’m coming from an empowered place internally no matter what’s going on outside of me.” Now, when I’m thinking about my guitar, I’m weighing it in a different way. Because if my music is popping in because I’m depressed, I’m down, I feel disempowered, I don’t know what else to do, and I just want to get the hell out of where I am. I don’t want that. I just don’t want to be here. Bravery, if we can cultivate the act of bravery on a daily basis, or a weekly basis, or start wherever you are, it changes your own internal DNA. It changes you on a cellular energetic level. Clarity becomes easier, choices become easier, more choices open up for you. 

Chris Villanueva 16:29
Love it. Wow. Sometimes when you talk I get so sucked in, I have nothing else to say. But wow, I’m sure other other listeners felt that too, as they’re driving in their cars, walking, taking a jog, and things like that. But that’s amazing. And how you know, these fleeting desires can be masked, or they can be used to mask the things that we’re seeing right now, whether that be anxiety, anxiety, depression, and I do encourage folks who do struggle and battle those things to go talk to somebody professionally about that is it can be a huge pain and confusing itself. But just the fact that we might be using these things to escape i think is it’s clarifying. I shouldn’t say but okay, bravery, and I know you’re touching upon it. But what is the first step to cultivating bravery if we are in a place of like, if we are being masked by these things, like dislikes we have for our job, and even some of these real deep personal things that are at play? I want to be brave right now. So what’s the first step?

Clara Chorley 17:24
Maybe the first step, and this isn’t the first step for everybody, because there isn’t of the one, there isn’t a thing to this, that just isn’t it depends on where you are in the journey. And even–

Chris Villanueva 17:33
Sorry to interrupt you, and examples and stories would help to hearing those things, I think or paint a picture.

Clara Chorley 17:39
So sometimes the first step is getting out of denial. So a very tangible example of that is when someone gets on a call with me, you don’t get on a call with me unless you’re ready to be some to some brave stuff, right? I’m not a therapist, you know, I’m that kind of just a coach. So it takes something for somebody to show up on a call with me. And when I’m sitting and I’m in a discovery call, I don’t even mean we’ve entered into coaching yet. I mean, we’re just having a conversation for somebody to get to that point where they’re like, “I need support.” For a lot of people that is a very brave and very vital first step, because this does get a scary. It’s scary, you know, going and out doing the old thing that you’ve always done that makes you feel the same way is you know, it’s known and it doesn’t feel great, and it affects your life.

And by the way, bravery isn’t the only antidote. It’s just a factor that helps with some of these things. That’s a known entity. And many people have been doing it for decades to do it differently. Usually, we need someone linking on with us. And often we’re in environments where we don’t have that, and many people don’t have that. They don’t have, you know, that cheering squad at home or where like you want to do something with your youth. You differ with your career, I’m on board. Let’s figure this out and often it’s like, “o, no, no, no, wait a minute. No, no, no, do not reduce your salary. Do not take that kind of risk.” You know, I know Marjorie over here, Majorie failed at this often and went out in the environments to support the person that we want to become.

So bravery is often where I think support is really, really big. Admitting to yourself sounds very 12-steppy, because a lot of value in 12 steps, admitting to yourself, like, “Oh, this really isn’t working out and I’m going to change this. I’m going to figure it out.” When people get on a call with me, and this can be men and women, and they start crying and telling me really how they feel, that is incredibly right. That’s incredibly brave, sitting with our own feelings and going, “this is how I’m really doing right now.” It’s a doorway. We’re all trying to be so brilliant and figure things out and get our resume lined up and say the right things in the interview for the job that we don’t even want and do all of that. When we climb into our own hearts and our own bodies, and we really sit and get very honest with ourselves, and it’s easier to do when we’re not alone. It’s easier to do this with someone who cares and you can still skillfully help us navigate and isn’t going to interrupt us and try and fix us. That kind of bravery facing ourselves being honest about who we are. That’s where I start.

Chris Villanueva 20:02
Yeah, I could tell you care a lot just from knowing you for the last six years. One of the things you said, and this is apparent in your brand and it’s a big part of your brand, your professional goal is to remove a lot of the pain and suffering that I think a lot of job seekers face. And it is a lot, I’m blown away even just from having a resume service, which is more of a superficial document than something deeper. But I’m blown away how much career is impacted, how psychological truly working with your career is and how much of that factors into things. So I want to make sure we have time to preview this Five “D” Framework, you’ve mentioned it before. And I think we need to have a separate episode on this. But what is the Five “D” framework? And how does it tie into everything that we’ve talked about?

Clara Chorley 20:54
May I just comment on something you just said about resumes? Yes, a resume, as I know you’ve seen is, can be a transformative document. Because when someone else presents me to myself, in a way that enhances me my skills, my experience, I have two choices: I can reject what I’m saying or I can integrate it and let it in. And if I integrate it and let it in, it levels me to the next place.

Chris Villanueva 21:21
Yes, I hear you. And it speaks to like getting on the phone with some of these clients and them speaking with a writer and actually having, like, getting it out of their mouth and just on paper. But I think it’s amazing and it is transformative. So I agree with that clients feel more confident. They feel like they’re more armed better for their job search. So really good clarification there.

Clara Chorley 21:47
Yeah, you’re welcome. Yeah, so the Five “D” is years of coaching. I’ve been running this business 14 years. Years and years of coaching and me finally sitting down and interviewing people. And also looking at the process I was with clients, that led to the five stages of the career transition process, generally, there’s this stage, and then there’s this stage, and then there’s this stage and so on. So it’s dream, dare, dive, decide, and design because everything’s got to be put into some sort of sound bite and have the same letter at the beginning of it for it to work. In my website Clarity Unlimited, it’s really not a linear proces and nothing in life is, but it’s really just the different guideposts you know, so that people can go oh, “I’m there. Okay, now gotta go to there.” So they can see where they are. Because the change journey, even if it’s just changing a job, it doesn’t have to be a massive career change. It’s untethering, a little bit chaotic. And I think it’s helpful to just have a general idea of the stages of it. 

Chris Villanueva 22:48
So that’s what Five “D” is. What’s “dream” about? And how does that tie into bravery and career change?

Clara Chorley 22:56
Well, this is exactly what we were talking about earlier. Because “D” is dream. Dream is, and I’ve got whole thing about dream because when we share the word “dream,” especially in America, well, not just in America, but we upload like the idea – now I’m playing my guitar again, right, and I’m on tour worldwide with whoever. That’s not a dream. A dream is this sort of intersection of what matters most to you, where your skills lie, the skill that you actually enjoy using and what you want to create with your life. So it’s not always an individualistic viewpoint, in my view, “what do I want to create from my family?” And it depends on where you are in life. Because if you’re in your 20s, your dream might be okay, I’ve got this long term dream, but my next step is a lily pad towards that. And if you’re later in life, your legacy building to clarify in your dream, it’s sort of what do you need. What matters most to you at this time in your life? And what would be that ultimate career satisfaction for you? Dream is really fabulous and it can be clear enough. And this isn’t the interviews. When I was asking people, “What would be a dream for you?”

“Well, I’d like a more fulfilling job.”

I’m like, “That’s good. We can stop there.”

“I’d like to be respected for my skill set.”

“Great. Let’s start with that.”

Chris Villanueva 24:19
I love that. Clara. Let’s at some point, I think we need to dive into the rest of this because there’s so much to unpack there. I think that’s a really exciting framework. But again, I mentioned earlier this episode, one of, I think, part of you is to remove the pain of suffering jobseekers, it’s so tough out there just hearing the voices of many. So what would or the person right now who is struggling to figure out what the heck job I’m gonna get next–they may hate their situation right now, or these people may not be getting any sort of momentum in their careers right now–what would you tell that person listening in today?

Clara Chorley 24:58
Everything you’re thinking and feeling is normal. I can give you a million examples of a million other people, maybe that’s too many, but a lot of other people who are thinking and feeling it, all the things that you’re doing and the things that you’re not doing and that you’re avoiding, everybody’s doing it. So I want to really normalize whatever it is you’re experiencing. I haven’t yet spoken to somebody who’s doing something that’s off this, so all of that is really normal. Please do something today. And I love this expression, a friend of mine uses this that pulls you back to yourself, “pull yourself back to yourself. Go do something today. Give yourself a mental break. Even if you’re late, but I haven’t done anything for a week. I don’t care. Go to dance, swim. Go for a walk, call a friend. Pick up your cat and stroke it. Take your dog for a walk. Yeah, go buy a dog, like whatever it do something that just soothes your soul.”

Chris Villanueva 25:55
This screen in front of you and social media, all that stuff that can suck you in and get out. 

Clara Chorley 26:00
Yeah, yes, down with the news. I don’t care what the news is saying. I look it’s just another you know, maybe you pivot a little bit from it. I don’t know. But yes, step away from the madness. Find you about yourself and do something soothing. Go to bed. Go take a four hour nap. I guess that’s not really a nap. But yeah, do something soothing.

Chris Villanueva 26:21
Alright, Career Warriors. That wraps up our conversation for today, I want to give you a little surprise, we’re actually going to release a part two of this episode in a little bit so make sure you’re subscribed. In that part two, we’re going to unpack the Five D framework. And I think this is such a powerful framework. If you are looking to implement, we’re looking to move towards that brave better future here. So make sure to subscribe. And please, I recommend checking out Claire’s stuff. I’ll link her website in the description of this podcast episode and I will also make sure to link her on LinkedIn as well.

So again, as I said in the beginning, let us know that you’ve listened to this episode, one of my favorite things actually is when a fellow listener, post this episode on LinkedIn, on their LinkedIn profile, and tagged me and the guest. So I highly encourage you to do that, if that speaks to you. But thank you so much for tuning in. I am so excited for you and whatever your future may hold. I know that you have some great things coming your way. You’re listening to this podcast episode, and you made it to the end. So I think that says a lot about you. Alright, Career Warriors, take care. Have an awesome, awesome rest of your week.

Career Warrior Podcast.

And before you go, remember, if you’re not seeing the results you want in your job search, our highly trained team of professional resume writers here at Let’s Eat, Grandma can help head on over to letseatgrandma.com/podcast to get a free resume critique and $70 off any one of our resume writing packages. We talk all the time on the show about the importance of being targeted in your job search and with our unique writing process and focus on individual attention. You’ll get a resume cover letter and LinkedIn profile that are highly customized and tailored to your goals to help you get hired faster. Again, head on over to letseatgrandma.com/podcast. Thanks and I’ll see you next time!