Career Warrior Podcast #314) The 5-D Framework for Career Change | Clara Chorley

Episode Transcript

Clara Chorley 0:00
“Decide” is accepting the dream job, and the dream job means it meets your core needs and wants at this time in your life. So the dream job is maybe three or four pillars. I need to be home to feed my kids, I need to earn a certain amount. I need to have the autonomy to actually do my work.

Chris Villanueva 0:23
Welcome to the Let’s Eat, Grandma Career Warrior Podcast!

And welcome to the lLet’s Eat, Grandma Career Warrior Podcast where our goal is not only to help you land your dream job, but to help you live your best life. Today’s episode is for the brave individual who wants to change their career or make a change in their career. I’m so excited about this episode, because it is a follow up a really critical important follow up to a previous episode we did with Clara Chorley. We’re going to unpack and discuss the five Ds to career change. Here are the five Ds you need to make that change here: so we have a dream, dare, dive, decide, and design. These are five Ds that are really important for career change, and being brave as you move forward in your career.

Now, this episode is not going to be an easy listen, because I know a lot of the folks who are going through career changes are going through struggles of their own. And there’s so many different reasons that you might be going through a career change or so many different ways you can take that. So by all means, this is not going to be a comprehensive episode on how to execute that change. For that I always recommend you know, listening and taking the time for yourself to decide what that change is going to look like. And of course seeking professional help, either possibly through a therapist or through an amazing career coach like Clara. There’s no magic bullet solution or no one blanket thing that is going to help you but this episode should at least encourage you to move forward and to take action because that is what I want my fellow warriors to do.

So without further ado, I’m going to bring Clara back on the show here. Clara Chorley believes that brave decisions are the pathway to the lives we want to live in the professional success we dream of. Since 2009, Clara has been a highly impactful Career Strategist, thought partner and trauma informed personal coach, she helps leaders in the business world untether from habits and environments that are wearing them out and taking back control of their careers and health. Clara’s unique international background spans five continents in 48 countries. She is supported professionals with a multitude of industries and humanitarian startup and fortune 100 organizations. Clara is a TEDx presenter, author of turn four steps to clarity in your career and creator of the five d framework for navigating career change. More importantly, she has a friend of mine and just an amazing individual. I’ve had the pleasure to speak with many times over the years. So you’re going to enjoy this episode, I hope.

So let’s launch right into that. All right, Clara. So let’s dive into your Five D framework here. This is going to outline the stages of a brave career change. So could you walk us through these stages and highlight a key insight or challenge that individuals might encounter on that stage?

Clara Chorley 3:35
Let’s start with the five D overview. So dream, dare, dive, decide, and design, everyone’s gonna forget that. But the time I got to design their leg was That’s one. But those are the five dream is the first stage. And it’s easy for some and very difficult but others and dream is where we’re looking at. am I building a legacy? Do I just want more freedom from my life in my life? Not from my life theory do that? am I building my legacy here? Do I want more freedom in my life? What would that look like? am I wanting to accumulate some skills for a future opportunity that I want? You know, maybe I want to go into a technical role before I go into a lead Research Director role, or what is fulfillment to you what matters most, you know, for many people, they sort of know what they do work wise, but it seems Vironment. They’re in this is where I didn’t matrix and people. It’s the environment they’re in is the people they’re working with and make or break that next opportunity to raise a stage. It’s independent, and it’s the hardest thing to do when you have when you’re injury. And as people people are sitting there and they go, Oh, I think I’d like to think I’d like to go up a level. I’d like to go up a notch. I’d like to go to that neck. And then immediately before they’ve inhaled, part of the brain kicks in and goes we’re not qualified for that. No one’s gonna No one’s gonna hire you for that. That’s never going to that let’s do this. know that that’s not what dream is dream is an independent stage, you got to be free. You got to give yourself creative. You got to give yourself time. Yes,

Chris Villanueva 5:10
I listened to the person I really respect and the kind of like scientific space called Dr. Andrew Huber many talks about the difference between like divergent and convergent like creative processes. And the divergent is where you kind of break out of your shell. That’s the way I see it. And you don’t necessarily start cutting out ideas. That’s more of the conversion process, like how do I make this work logistically given the constraints that I have, but the divergence should be more about, like, get letting those ideas flow? And kind of like dreaming a little bit? That’s the way I see it.

Clara Chorley 5:43
Yes, I love that. I love that. And it’s sort of like, get your initial ideas. I’m a big fan of big pages of post it paper and stick them on a wall and then just put disparate ideas on them in different colors.

Chris Villanueva 5:55
You got a whiteboard behind me like the drawing aspect. Yeah.

Clara Chorley 5:59
Yes. The visual piece, right? It’s most of us are wired that many of us are wired that way. So getting those ideas out, then you get to see what’s behind them. At least the next layer, if you don’t put it out somehow through conversation through writing through whatever. Yeah, yeah, whatever the client had been in oil and gas industry. We call them whale sales, shoe deals, right? A lot of business development, relationship development, and wanting to make a shift. And it took time to come up with this idea of like, is it sales? Is it business development? Is it renewable energy, what aspects of renewable energy that I really want to run on gas anymore? Like that whole process was messy, it took a lot of conversations, a lot of different interviews, she found a way eventually, that journey continues. But there has to be space for this. And people don’t give themselves enough space. Give yourself a week, if she can give yourself a month, even better, that space base for dreaming and really discerning like what really matters to me at this point, because for some people, it matters that they’re free to go pick their kids up from school. And for some people, it matters that they’re earning $250,000. Yeah, because they’ve got a goal around that, maybe to put their kids in college, or maybe they want to buy a house or whatever, I don’t care what it is. Bora Bora for a month, give yourself space. So give yourself space.

Chris Villanueva 7:13
I think that is so important. It doesn’t just mean like for me at least, it doesn’t just mean the time, I think that’s incredibly important. But you have to make take the actual time, like take the week, however much you need. But also, I brought this up earlier, like a LinkedIn post. But I had a past professor who told me I was kind of struggling with like, there’s this thing I really care about, but like I’m not giving it the time and attention that it deserves. And he was like, You got to look at also where your energy lies to. It’s like, are you trying to brainstorm and come up with these ideas when you just got out of work? And you’re mentally beat? And you’ve been scrolling through social media, etc, etc? It’s like, or is this when you’re most fresh and more primed for that? So I think jobseekers like like give yourself time, like a good window peek chunk of time that I think that you can carve these things out. But that resonates me I’m a morning person. So I think best I think like earlier on in the day, I don’t know about you.

Clara Chorley 8:08
Yeah, it depends on the day. And some people are just exhausted all the time. So there isn’t that the moment like there isn’t that great time. But I mean, if there is now that book time off work, you know, lay take a morning off and go wherever and do whatever, but just struggling with you instead of like, oh, I have any energy for this, then it’s even more important that you that you do it and you find a way. And that could be a Yeah, I don’t know it. You know, I think one of the key things with with creativity is we have to change our environments you’re in if you’re in this habit of like I go to Trader Joe’s and then I come home and then I work from home. And then I go to the office on these days. And then I go to the gym and then I come home and then it goes to the restaurant with my wife or my husband or whatever, my friends and then I come home. If you walk into same pods, the best thing you can do for creativity and to figure out what it is that you want is put yourself in a new environment. Yeah. And see what happens. Love that. And again, I think getting support, you know, you can ask a friend to sit and listen, you don’t even have to hire somebody for this to ask a friend to just sit and listen and let them know what listening really means. Don’t let them get in and like start planning your career. Just places where you can listen to yourself, do some research, see what sparks something inside of you. These are all great crowds.

Chris Villanueva 9:20
There’s so much more to cover there I think but what is the next deal for the sake of time first of all people need to book a call with you if any of this stuff is resonating, because really there we could have like whole hour long episodes. I think just a diving into each one of these, like perhaps one D resonates more with another but for the sake of the overview What’s the next one? I’d love to hear it? Yes.

Clara Chorley 9:41
So the next one and by the way, I might start a monthly Office Hours drop in to him brief career decisions on Zoom a month. How can I be one for the month so have a chat or don’t won’t be recorded or confidential. The next day is dare to we’ve got clear in not clear enough on the kind of people the sort of organization the work we want to do and the things that we need a wise and you know, the tactical logistical stuff. Dare is okay, this is this sort of internal mental emotional. Here’s the old land over here. My hand is moving on the right. Here’s the new land over here, my hand is moving on the left, and there’s a bridge between the two. So you’re where you are, and you know where you want to go. clearly enough. Day is like stepping onto the bridge. Jer is okay, I’m gonna go for this. I’m willing to let go of who I’ve been what I’ve been doing, because I want something new. I want something better, because I’m worth it. Yeah. So Derek is getting onto the bridge, which takes the mental emotional preparation that can that can take some life. Some people are in debt for 234 years, longer. Some people are in debt this long. And we all know those people because they’re credibly annoying, because they decide what they want. And off they go. But most of us aren’t wired that way. I made my trip to Africa. So five years ago when I took that one way trip to Santa. Yes, yeah, we’re like 30 years in the making. Yeah, it took me a really long time to be brave enough and to really make a move like that on a trip to leave my home. 

Chris Villanueva 11:21
So, you know, can you talk about what was like the I don’t know if that’s the right word for but like the trigger point, the thing that actually bumps you on over it? Was there one moment? Or was it truly a build up kind of a ramp up?

Clara Chorley 11:32
I love that you asked that because I think we live in a little bit of a fantasy. I think there’s a lot of people waiting for a moment, a moment when they’re suddenly going to be brave a moment when they’re suddenly going to be able to do the thing to get on the flight to quit the job to find the new one to feel better to get change their situation. They’re waiting for that thing. It’s almost a rescue fantasy. Occasionally, you know, the aha moments come but the most people it’s brewing thing over time, it’s a little step. It’s a little step. It’s constant momentum. Yeah, just little tiny things that we can do. And that’s what it was, for me, it was 30 years of going back and forth from Africa. I was in therapy about this Africa thing that I didn’t understand what it was, I was journaling. I was looking, I was spending my time over there and move my business online so that I could be over there more often. So I could still coach people from wherever I was in the world. That was my impetus eight years ago for moving online. So I was moving myself in that direction very slowly. And then one day, I’m laying on a couch in my friend’s place, I don’t even know what I was thinking about. And my intuition goes. So it was all those years, all those moments, everything that I’d done to prepare, then it was time. That’s how it works. And just so people aren’t worried, doesn’t have to take 30 years.

Chris Villanueva 12:46
I love it. Thanks for sharing a quad. And you always have the coolest story. I know you’re like the world traveler you but I love bringing in the travel element. Thank you for sharing, Clara, what is what’s the next D here in this framework.

Clara Chorley 13:00
And the framework, I’m going to rename this on my site. So Dive is the third stage. So in there, we’re sort of we’re also you know, we’re on the bridge, we’ve we’ve got a sort of approximate plan, right, there’s a very sort of loose plan we started to look at our network died is we’re on the search. Now we’re walking over the bridge, when looking for the thing you know, I’m down there in the water below in the canoe, because you can only use a single walking bridge, you have to walk over it on your own, and you’re leaving a lot behind. And now we’re into a lot of the it’s sort of paralleling all the tactical stuff happens here. Because you know what you want and then you gotta get your cover letter and your resume and you got to organize your network, then that word that you don’t think you have, that you do have, start reaching out, start having conversations, get conversations beyond those conversations. 234 deep, this naturally starts to happen when you start talking to people happening. And it’s okay if you’re an introvert. I’m trying to like name all the things that come up for people around this right now. Yeah, think about that. Beautiful ways of doing this, but it’s all this tactical stuff that comes up. And in the middle of all of that people are navigating things like I keep getting passed over this discrimination is exhausting.

Chris Villanueva 14:12
It’s discrimination to comes up a lot.

Clara Chorley 14:15
All areas of discrimination – age, ableism race, how your voice sounds, what your hair color is, it’s extraordinary. People come up like I say this is where they second guess their abilities a lot because the bridge is like it’s a little it’s moving a little bit. We’re not really sure are we moving but it’s very honestly it feels very unstable because it’s new. Rejection comes up a lot. people’s ability to navigate rejection or not not hearing back. I no longer you know what I’m tired of hearing about. I’m tired of this phrase. 

Chris Villanueva 14:50
I’m way tired of that. Because it sounds deliberate. 

Clara Chorley 14:53
Organizations aren’t deliberately ghosting people. They just don’t have the internal structures. But if I feel I was ghosted, and now something personal has happened. That’s an attack. It’s an attack. And now I can’t. Yes, because it’s summer one meal, I wouldn’t be being ghosted. So I think it’s healthier. The languaging people use at these times is vital. I don’t want to be out of a job forever. Please don’t say things like that. It’s not going to be ever. Yeah, they ghosted me and making up stories, I all of that stuff. Like, we really have to watch that. Because night is usually the longest phase out of the five phases. And you gotta keep your game together. It’s hard to stay hopeful. Everyone’s got a different opinion is the right path. Why did I wait so long? And we should started thinking, do I have what it takes? I know, people are telling me I have these transferable skills, but I don’t really know if I can buy into them. And can I communicate them? So dive, you’re navigating tactically, moving forwards, getting back up every time you don’t hear back, applying, again, putting your heart and your soul into it every single time not being attached to the outcome, but keeping going and then navigating this internal world. It’s a journey. It is a journey.

Chris Villanueva 16:12
I’m so glad you said the ghosted thing too, because like things get perpetuated on LinkedIn a lot. And I think it can be somewhat of in an echo chamber out there. And so yeah, watch your language. I think it’s really important.

Clara Chorley 16:26
Yes. What’s your word? Sure. Language.

Chris Villanueva 16:28
Yeah, decide that type? 

Clara Chorley 16:29
Wait, the last thing that happens in dive is you get you start to get offers. That’s what happened with I’ve started getting clicks. 

Chris Villanueva 16:35
That’s the exciting part. Well, so you get you get offers, why is decide? You said it’s not linear. So why does design decide come next after that? What’s decided about?

Clara Chorley 16:44
So glad you asked that question, Chris. Because “Decide” is this place where you choose. Now, I’m going to name that people have different privilege levels, when it comes to deciding that people are not in a situation to turn the job down. But if you know, it’s the wrong job, because of the way you’ve been treated through the interview process, the way the whole thing has failed. The job sounds great. But you know, the resources aren’t available. Whatever it is, if something in your gut, if you’re trying to convince yourself to take a job, ideally, you don’t decide is accepting the dream job. And the dream job means it meets your core needs and wants at this time in your life. So the dream job is maybe three or four pillars. I need to be home to feed my kids, I need to earn a certain amount. I need to have the autonomy to actually do my work and the dream job. So the choice of decide is based on a foundation of two things. Due Diligence, which ideally you’ve asked smart questions as you went along. You’ve learned about the organization, you’ve had exposure to people, you’ve done your thing. And self trust. Nobody takes on a job with 100% confidence that is the right thing, because that’s impossible, because you don’t have all the information because you’re not in the job yet. So you do your best. So self trust is I’ve done my due diligence, I’ve asked the questions. I’ve got the information, to the best of my knowledge, I believe I can navigate this environment, I can be successful at this job. And if it all blows up in my face, I will figure it out. That’s what decide is. And the challenging thing about decide Chris is when you’ve just come through dream wishes, like pulling teeth for some people. And now you dad, and you went to dive and then you had to go back and dare again. And then you had to go back to dream. But now you’re back and dive.

Chris Villanueva 18:43
Linear, right? It’s not a perfect little timeframe, you know, but yeah, right.

Clara Chorley 18:47
Yes, it’s an in no way. And it’s helpful to to go back and watch because you get clearer as you go and you get braver as you go. Because then dummies stay in the game with something that’s odd. You get braver by the time you get to decide you’re getting job offers. The majority of people are like, “I just want out of the game. I want to be in this area. All right, I didn’t think gotta be better than where I am, you know, what I don’t get a better offer? What if I don’t get another offer? So a lot of these, a lot of these concerns come up and decide and if you can hang in there. This is why good, cool. This is a whole other conversation about starting as early as you can trusting your stance that it’s time for a change and starting then instead of waiting until you’re depleted and you’re ready to quit. You can’t handle it anymore. We could do a whole episode on that. We should do that that’s what deciders decides, like you know, this is where you get ahead in this game soon as you start Yeah, that’s how you get ahead. That’s what decided in your dream job. Love it. It’s stage.

Chris Villanueva 19:56
Yes. And by the way, just gonna say Elon and right now I think think that just the personal examples and stories just keep bringing it up? 

Clara Chorley 20:06
And yes, that’s the next one. Okay, cool. Cool. Yes. The final stage with me with my clients, but really, it’s a helpful stage for anybody to to think about. And that’s design and design. I sit down with my client, and we look at the first 90 days, used to plan out as best we can the first 90 days, who are our key stakeholders? What are the processes that are in place? What are the resources available to us? What’s our leadership approach? And how are we taking care of ourselves, because there can be a tendency, when you first start a new job to completely over work, set a precedent for overworking, lean in too far or lean back too far. Because you want to impress and you want to achieve. So it’s good to have a general idea of those first three months and how you’re going to navigate that. And when you’re going to stop work, and, you know, balance yourself throughout it. So that’s what design is.

Chris Villanueva 20:57
And that’s why I would hope the folks and obviously the, when you help people land their dream job, it doesn’t end there. That’s not the very end of the story. And so what are some of the challenges I should say, are the folks who end up landing that dream job, and they ended up working for those first few months here, and then you kind of touched upon it view. But like, another example or story would be great.

Clara Chorley 21:20
One of the big things that can happen in the first 90 days is people go in with their own idea of what they already want to do, based on the interviews or you know, whatever information they’ve gathered. And a lot of people will go in and start acting on that, that they go in, they go into carry a lot of assumptions into the new job about what’s needed. So I see these processes in place, but we should be there siloing going on between these departments. So we should make sure they’re communicating. And we should adjust these processes over here. So it’s more streamlined from the data science people to write, whatever those things are, that they’re seeing. And that can be more helpful approach is to go in an information gather. So there’s this tendency to go in and hit the ground running and show how smart you are and how brilliant you are. And actually, you show that by opening your ears and not your mouth, which sounds good and immediate parts, we want to take that out. We think you really mature, you show how smart you are by by really listening. And by learning. And by gathering information from all the key people around you. And maybe the people who often get ignored that hold the nuggets, you know, those who are like really working in the belly of the organization. So that that’s a classic error, because it’s counterintuitive to go in and what feels like the passive, but actually, it’s highly strategic. And you can communicate that when you’re in, I’m going to be sitting back, I’m going to be learning in the first couple of weeks. And then together, we’re going to make a plan.

Chris Villanueva 22:50
Beautiful way to end the five Ds here. Do you have anything you would like to say to round it out or tie all these lovely DS together?

Clara Chorley 23:00
Yes, there is something I’d like to say. I think sometimes hearing the five stages and some of the things that go on and each of them, some people are going to feel relief from that. And other people are going to be like, Oh, it’s a lot. And I just want to be a really strong reminder that we find our way over the bridge to the new place by taking one step at a time. When for those of us that are perfectionist and overachievers that’s incredibly frustrating. But it’s actually really important. And the mind goes, I should be further faster, I should have gotten there already. I should be doing this kind of job. But really, I want to do this kind of job. The mind is bananas. It’s bananas during these kinds of these kinds of transitions. You can the more you can bring yourself back to what’s a step I can take today to get clearer, who’s one person I can talk to today to feel better, or to get their mentorship or to find out if my skills fit that kind of job. We’ve got so good access to so many people in so much. In this really what you two to one baby step. Just take one baby step a day is real, that I want to wrap that

Chris Villanueva 24:13
I love it. Oh my gosh. And you are my favorite. Thank you so much for being on the show, not once, not twice, but probably like six or seven times by this time. Because I’ve known you for such a long time. I know the power and impact you’re making out there in the career space in this amazing heart that you have. So thank you so much for enlightening. Hopefully these 1000s of people who are listening to this are going to be listened to this over time. I think this will stay relevant for years and years. So how can we steer people to what you offer? I know you mentioned that monthly call which may or may not launch but how do we find out if you’re going to launch that call? How do people get in touch with you?

Clara Chorley 24:58
Love to hear so are a big thank you better to you on what you’re doing as well, the people’s lives and moving them forwards in an area of our lives that matters to all of us, which is our work. And we do it with such generosity and clarity, and surrounding yourself with people that enhance your work. Thank you. I’m a big fan, too. If people go on my website, clarity, unlimited.com, they can sign up for the newsletter, which I’m horribly inconsistent with. But if I’m going to launch a monthly thing, that’s how you’re going to find out. The other way to find out is to find me on LinkedIn on that my name, Clara chuli, which I’m sure is written somewhere on here. Because who knows how to spell surely I don’t even know how to spell it out the time. So you can go on to LinkedIn, I’m posting there regularly, you can look at my background, you can look at some testimonial. And if I’m going to do that, when I do this monthly event or conversation room space, you will find out about it there. I don’t work with a lot of clients, I’m not high volume. And I’m not high turnover. But if that’s something that you you’re feeling, either through LinkedIn or my website, you can sign up for a discovery call. And we spend about an hour together and I get to learn lots about you and you get to get a feel for me. And then we decide if we want to work together or not. If we think we can both win, we’ll do it, then you can book a discovery call that way. That’s what I’ve got right now.

Chris Villanueva 26:27
Perfect, and your LinkedIn and website and all that good stuff. Of course, we’ll make sure to link within the description of this episode. So just hit description, and then that will also be linked within this episode. Or you can just hop on your browser and find this yourself. But there thank you so so much. I know we’re gonna keep doing this and staying in touch over time as we have been over the last six years. But thank you so much for doing this and hope you have an awesome rest of your day.

Clara Chorley 26:55
Thank you, Chris.

Chris Villanueva 26:56
All right, listeners. That wraps up Episode 314, which is the part two from Episode 312. This is the five D framework for career change: dream, dare, dive, decide, and design. My gosh, I love speaking with Clara because not only she is such an authentic and amazing individual, but she provides some really solid stories and examples from her own life. And you can tell that she is all about removing the pain and helping you as the job seeker. So I think Clara for coming on the show for the umpteenth time. And I hope that this episode was insightful for you, if you are looking to make that sort of change. If you haven’t checked out episode 312, I highly recommend listening as there were some important considerations surrounding career change that we covered. And of course, I will make sure to include Clara’s LinkedIn profile and her website on the description of this episode. Please tag both of us if you’re active on LinkedIn, I would love for you to post this episode and tag both of us. And I can’t thank you enough for coming in and tuning into today’s episode. I’ll see you next time career warrior podcast.

Before you go remember, if you’re not seeing the results you want and your job search our highly trained team of professional resume writers here at Let’s Eat, Grandma can help head on over to letseatgrandma.com/podcast to get a free resume critique and $70 off any one of our resume writing packages. We talk all the time on the show about the importance of being targeted in your job search and with our unique writing process and focus on individual attention. You’ll get a resume cover letter and LinkedIn profile that are highly customized and tailored to your goals to help you get hired faster. Again, head on over to letseatgrandma.com/podcast. Thanks and I’ll see you next time!