Episode Transcript

Elizabeth Lotardo 0:00
Your personal brand is not something you turn on the second you enter the job market. It is something that you are always growing, even when you’re happy in your current role.

Chris Villanueva 0:13
Welcome to the Let’s Eat, Grandma Career Warrior Podcast.

Chris Villanueva 0:22
And welcome to the Let’s Eat, Grandma Career Warrior Podcast. where our goal is not only to help you land your dream job, but to help you live your best life. So much of job seeking narrative revolves around being unhappy, changing companies. How can we forge our own path and create our own opportunities? How can we take a more self directed approach, lead ourselves and defeat the very things that are holding us back. Elizabeth Lotardo, my next guest, helps organizations drive emotional engagement. She is a consultant, writer and training creator who has worked with leaders at every level in over 150 organizations, including Salesforce, DraftKings, Hilton and numerous Berkshire Hathaway organizations, she’s designed programs for senior leaders, frontline managers and entry level teammates that enable everyone to create more purpose driven work experiences. Elizabeth is a wildly popular LinkedIn learning instructor with millions of views on her courses like leading with formal authority, finding your purpose at work and leading yourself.

Chris Villanueva 1:23
She has a bachelor’s degree in advertising for Boston University, masters in industrial and organizational psychology, and is a contributor for Harvard Business Review. Her work has been featured in The Wall Street Journal and on NPR. Elizabeth’s newest book, leading yourself is about creating meaning, joy and opportunities at work, even when your job is far from perfect. She’s also the co author of selling with noble purpose, and I’ve just read some amazing things here. So I know this conversation is going to be a fun one. So go ahead and buckle up for this episode of the career for your podcast.

Chris Villanueva 2:01
Elizabeth, welcome to the show.

Elizabeth Lotardo 2:03
Thanks for having me. Chris,

Chris Villanueva 2:05
Awesome. I am so excited to dive into this conversation. I don’t know whether we’ve done one before, on leading yourself, and I just think that’s such an awesome, clever, catchy title. So I will delve into actually a question about the book, because I think that’s going to connect with the motivations of a lot of our listeners. But why did you write the book leading yourself? What message were people simply not getting that you wanted to convince them of.

Elizabeth Lotardo 2:29
So unlike a lot of writers, I didn’t have some big moment. There wasn’t some cloud parting epiphany that led me to write a book I first started talking about leading yourself in 2017 when I made a LinkedIn learning course on it, and LinkedIn learning was really expanding their leadership library, and I approached them with, hey, what about leading, but just for you, like, if you don’t have direct reports? And it was kind of this fluffy idea, but they bought it because they were in hyper growth mode in 2020. That course took off because what people found this so many of us went remote. Is your boss isn’t right next to you. The directives are less frequent. The onus is on you to own your role and figure it out. So I updated the course in 2020 I updated again in 2024 and as this concept that was once quite fluffy started to gain steam, I started to dive even deeper into the research to understand why are people suddenly so interested in this now, and what elements are most important as we look at a really challenging landscape, and that is what led me to create the book leading yourself last year.

Chris Villanueva 3:36
I love the subtitle. It says, find more joy meaning opportunities in the job you already have despite imperfect bosses, weird economies, lethargic workers, annoying systems and too many deliverables. So where, where did that subtitle come from? It’s like, were these things that people were bringing up, or just things you were noticing in the current news?

Elizabeth Lotardo 3:57
Yes. So some of it is research, some of it is my consulting work, in the research, we know that meaning, joy and opportunities contribute to fulfilling work experience in my work as an employee engagement consultant, the same themes kept coming up when I would do employee interviews, the themes that you listed, lethargic co workers have too much to do. All of these systems are annoying. And what I found was that when people would bring these things up to me, and those things are valid, they’re really frustrating. There was this assumption that they were unique to the organization where they were. I’ve been in and out of hundreds of organizations, and I’d respond with a gentle, you know, friend that’s everywhere, okay? Like everywhere has too much to do. Everyone has an imperfect boss, everyone has coworkers who get under their skin, but not everyone is completely paralyzed by it, and that is the question I wanted to answer with leading yourself. Not how can you reduce all of those things, because we know they’re ever present, but how can you upskill yourself in a way? A that enables you to operate in the face of them.

Chris Villanueva 5:02
I love that, so we’ll talk in a second about leading yourself what that means. But just as a side plug, I do, I did get through the the video summary of your book. I thought it was fabulous. I really like how you can reframe someone’s thinking from all these negative things to things that are actually productive for people’s careers. I’ve gotten far too many emails from folks who just have, you can just tell like there’s that lack of confidence, or folks who feel like these external factors, whether something’s going on with the economy or the government and things like that, they feel like kicked down. So I think that you reframe things really nicely, and I’d love to get into that.

Elizabeth Lotardo 5:42
So it’s hard not to be kicked down, and I’m not gonna sit here and be like, Oh, I am immune from looming thoughts of AI taking my job and our government’s chaos, right? Those things keep me up at night too. And back to these things are ever present, the notion that we can somehow convince ourselves that that’s not true and we shouldn’t worry about it is ridiculous. If you are an intelligent person, you’re worried about this. The challenge is to not let it paralyze you, and that’s where so much of the self development conversation gets derailed. To try and like convince yourself that these things aren’t scary and that they don’t matter. Of course, they’re scary. They do matter, but you still have to operate in the face of them, and the best way I found to do that is to point your mind to the opportunity. We’re acknowledging these things are real. They come with some challenges, but there is always an opportunity for us inside of them.

Elizabeth Lotardo 6:36
So like AI, for example. AI is really scary. What if it takes my job? What if it does this? What if it does that? Where’s the opportunity for me? What if this is my chance to learn new skills? What if this is my chance to go into an industry that maybe I didn’t expect, but would be really good for me? This is my chance to pivot myself and meet the moment you’re only in control of your own behavior. The more you Doom scroll, the worse you’re gonna feel. The more you look for an opportunity, the better it is.

Chris Villanueva 7:02
I love that. Let’s circle back to that and limiting beliefs here to second. First, I want to talk about self leadership. Think that’s a it’s a term that a lot of people might they might get confused by, because it can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But what does self leadership look like? And just open ended question, why should we even lead ourselves in the first place?

Elizabeth Lotardo 7:23
Self leadership is owning your full power, whether you are in an entry level role, whether you are between jobs, whether you’re in your dream job, it is fully owning that seat and using all of the levers that you control, your own mindset, your own behaviors, the way you build relationships to optimize that seat. And why should we lead ourselves? Well, if you don’t lead yourself, someone else will surely step up and lead you right. There’s no shortage of people willing to tell you what to do, from your boss to some you know, LinkedIn expert to the two of us sitting here on this podcast, you have to control your own destiny before someone else does, and it’s never been more important than now, when priorities are changing, when everyone is becoming really selfish, and when we don’t know what the future looks like.

Chris Villanueva 8:11
I mean, I’ve spoken with a few people who feel like they are. They’ve stagnated. Their careers. Maybe have stagnated. They feel like they are in a position that doesn’t support them. Maybe they haven’t thought about leading themselves and like the direction they want to take. One thing you talk about in the book is purpose, and like finding your greater purpose in what we do. So what would you say for the person who may have felt like, Okay, I’ve kind of status quo myself into the same situation I’ve been in, but what, how do I find my purpose and what I’m going to be doing?

Elizabeth Lotardo 8:45
A collective lack of meaning became really obvious during COVID When all of the peripheries of the office were stripped away like there wasn’t some fancy coffee bar and all of our friends to go get lunch with, and all that was left was the work. And a lot of people reached the conclusion that the work was quite meaningless and they didn’t find much emotional fulfillment in it, and they went to a different job because of that, which is the basis of the great resignation. And what we found after the great resignation was the majority of people who departed weren’t more emotionally fulfilled, despite leaving to become more emotionally fulfilled. So what does that tell us?

Elizabeth Lotardo 9:26
The grass isn’t greener on the other side. You know, that’s long been said, and when it comes to purpose. Have you seen that? That graphic that goes around LinkedIn, I’m gonna mispronounce it. It’s called like ikigai. Ikigai, I don’t know where all the circles come together, where what you do combines with what the world needs, combines with what you love, combines with what you get paid for, like all this perfect confluence of circles is supposed to be your career. I hate that graphic because I think it’s at such an unrealistic bar of emotional fulfillment at work. What. One that almost no one will achieve, and we think all my circles aren’t coming together. Surely my career is doomed, and that’s just not the case.

Elizabeth Lotardo 10:12
The more sustainable approach, the more effective approach, is to find these small doses of purpose inside the job we already have by tracing our ripple effect, by exploring how what we do on a daily basis impacts customers, whether it helps them run their business, helps them go home at night, helps them manage their money, whatever it is how our work impacts our coworkers and how we make an impact on how they show up, like these smaller moments that seem less consequential, they add up to be much more profound than this, like perfect confluence of circles that no one ever experiences.

Chris Villanueva 10:45
Love it. Love it. There’s a lot of stuff on LinkedIn that is just not, I mean, you would think that LinkedIn would be good for your mental health, but not really sometimes, because, like, you just, I mean, you’re like, all right, I’m here to like, go get inspired, and to like, you know, connect and support people. But sometimes, like, you’re just like, reading these posts, and it’s just like, it kind of just it sucks you in and it doesn’t feel good. So, yeah, definitely, definitely watch what you see and limit your time on LinkedIn, kind of as a side plug.

Elizabeth Lotardo 11:17
Well, I don’t know about that. I mean, I post on LinkedIn a lot, but I do think that being conscious of who you follow and opting out of these, like 4am morning routine, love every second of your work day these unrealistic bars is an important thing to do, like any social media.

Chris Villanueva 11:32
Yeah, it’s definitely something you have to be conscious about as you are scrolling. Don’t know Doom scrolling here. So limiting beliefs and uncertainty. That’s another concept I want to hit home with here. I liked this concept, and I think it made a lot of sense to me. You talk about load bearing neural pathways, this concept in your book. Can you talk about what that is and how we can overcome those with the support beams?

Elizabeth Lotardo 11:58
So a load bearing neural pathway is your brain’s equivalent to a load bearing neural wall in a house. And that is a belief that holds up lots of other small beliefs and decisions and actions. And a common one that we see in the world of work is work sucks and it’s supposed to be a grind. So if that’s one of your load bearing neural pathways, this core belief that holds up lots of other things in your mind. You maybe don’t stick up for yourself when your boss is mean to you, you maybe go home every day really tired hating your job, and you think, Okay, well, that’s normal, because work sucks and it’s a grind. So you know, expected you talk to your kids about how bad work is and how much that they should enjoy, that they don’t have to work until, you know, they turn 18 and they do that core belief of work sucks, it’s a grind has held up so many decisions and mindsets and actions or inactions, and it’s a really easy to not examine it, because if we start to dismantle that, that load bearing neural pathway of work sucks, then what does that mean? Right? Were we supposed to stick up for ourselves? Why did we stick it out for all these years? Why did we fill our our conversations with all these messages that reinforce a belief that work sucks.

Elizabeth Lotardo 13:22
So if you want to do the work and take down that load bearing neural pathway, you have to add support beams. You can’t just dismantle it. It’s like smoking, like you can’t just quit cold turkey. You need the gum, the patch, something to prop you up in the meantime. So a support beam is something that you tell yourself a mindset that helps you remove that load bearing neural pathway. So if you’re working on removing a load bearing neural pathway of work sucks, you can tell yourself work is hard, but there are joyful moments, right? We can believe that.

Elizabeth Lotardo 13:55
We’re not going to gloss over the fact that work can be challenging, work, work is hard, but there are joyful moments, and we’re going to start to start to prop up that belief and place our mentality there and operate from that core truth instead of work sucks and it’s a grind, and I hate it all the time, so making that proactive mental effort to one identify what are these core beliefs that are holding me back and making me make decisions and conversations that aren’t in alignment with where I want to be, and two, how can I dismantle them? By pointing my brain somewhere else instead of just saying, Well, I’m not going to think like that anymore.

Chris Villanueva 14:31
I’m a very tangible kind of like practical guy when it comes to exercises like this. Do you recommend like writing it down or talking it out with somebody? Where do you typically go?

Elizabeth Lotardo 14:41
Both can be helpful. I think it’s really individualistic. Whether you learn best from writing, whether you are a verbal processor who needs to talk things through with someone, whether you are someone who can, you know, stare at your belly button and contemplate the meaning of life, whatever works for you to get to what core load burn, girl pathway. Are holding me back, and how can I start to dissolve them? That’s where you need to go.

Chris Villanueva 15:05
Yeah, I think one that I commonly get is that I keep getting rejected. And they don’t say this outright, but they say, like, it’s me, like, what am I doing wrong? Or I’m never gonna get the job that I want, at least not anytime soon. So from a job seeking perspective, I can see how this can certainly hold someone back, and this could be one of the things that it just kind of prevents you from even getting those applications out there in the beginning. So yeah,

Elizabeth Lotardo 15:32
It creates your reality. And if you are sitting there with the core belief that load barrier pathway of I’m problematic and I don’t deserve the job I want. You can’t mask that 100% you will guarantee that reality to some degree.

Chris Villanueva 15:50
We mentioned it a few times in this episode already, but can you talk about AI? Because I know that is something that people are worried about and something that is unstoppable at this point, but how would you reframe AI is going to take my job, or there’s so much instability with AI that I don’t even know where to begin.

Elizabeth Lotardo 16:09
That’s valid, especially in the job seeking landscape. What we know is that these online application pools are really crowded because everyone is using AI to optimize their resume to meet specific jobs and mass supply so recruiters are overwhelmed. These applicant pools are way too crowded with unqualified applicants that sometimes aren’t even real, and it is a terrifying position to be in. But even still, you are not powerless. What can you do in the face of this? You are going to try other avenues to get in the door. No more one click. Apply. Easy. Apply. We know those are not viable paths. You are going to try to find the recruiter. You’re going to find the manager who is responsible for that open role. You’re going to find teammates who are adjacent to that open role, and you’re going to try and build relationships with them. Do what AI can’t do. You can use AI to help find out who that is, but use your human skills to get in the door a different way. We know that AI is disrupting the most predominant channels, so pick a different channel.

Chris Villanueva 17:17
Yes, you warm my heart here, Elizabeth. You’re like, you’re speaking to me almost because, like, I felt that same sort of anxiety in the past, and even now, I’m like, Okay, what’s going on? What’s going on? Have to check the news. But it’s, it’s so powerful to reframe that, and it builds confidence and keeps you productive. So I think that that is all really well said.

Elizabeth Lotardo 17:41
Well. And I think both of us are sitting here in a position of, yeah, like we know something about the job landscape. We know how to reframe less than helpful thoughts. But even the two of us become victim of this, it’s so disruptive. Yep. And back to writing a book like now, chat GPT can write books? What does that mean for the publishing landscape? What does it mean to have a book nothing anymore. So recognize that you are not the only one with these thoughts. Everyone, even if they are gainfully employed in a job they like, is wrestling with this.

Chris Villanueva 18:12
Yeah, I’m a musician, and so I know that AI has been even taking the music industry by storm. And so I was on, gosh, what is the app? I think it’s like, called suno.ai but you could just put a prompt in, and it’ll generate a song within 30 seconds based on your prompt. And I was all existential. I was like, What is the point of doing what I’m doing and creating the art? If that’s the case, but a it’s nowhere near where we are at today. I think there is so much craft and personal touch that goes into the artistry of what we do as creatives like you, creating this beautiful book, and, you know, people creating music and all these things like all of that is still very, very relevant today, and I think authentic, human led writing is still needed no matter what we’re doing so.

Elizabeth Lotardo 19:04
Well, I hope so audience of one, at least,

Chris Villanueva 19:07
Yeah, and there’s AI podcasters out there now, and I’m like, it just sounds so robotic. Even if it does get better, there’s nothing I think that beats being able to connect with people, human to human. And so I think that’s what we should do, really, as as job seekers too. It’s like, how can we use the tool to our advantage? But make sure that you know our accomplishments and our stories are really being told in the resume effectively? I think that’s important to consider. So I want to talk about being happier at work. That’s something that we discussed before in the past, and then creating internal opportunities as well. Thanks so much of the narrative and job seeking, like especially when you hop on LinkedIn, is just people moving to different companies or being unhappy with your current situation. But what does being happier? What does being happier at work mean to you? And what are some ways that we can do that without making this massive change or this. Huge leap.

Elizabeth Lotardo 20:01
So that’s gonna differ from person to person. What does it mean to be happier at work? But I think the notion that you can water the grass where you are and make changes in the job you have instead of looking for a new job is a valid one. That’s basically the premise of my book, and the first step in doing that is to get to the root of the angst. So often we sit in a jog, we’re like, I don’t like it here, man, and we don’t really know why.

Elizabeth Lotardo 20:29
It’s just this gnawing feeling of distaste. But when you dig deep to uncover why am I unhappy? Here? Is it a lack of opportunities? I don’t see a next play for myself. Here, is it I don’t have the relationships I want with my co workers? Is it the work I’m doing is boring and meaningless, like, what is it that is the result of the or that is the root of the unhappiness? And then how do you tackle that if you don’t have the relationships you want with your co workers? What are some strategies to meet new co workers, to boo your relationships outside of work to, you know, forge a better relationship with the co workers that you do have if you’re unhappy with the opportunities that you see in your current organization, how can you raise your hand in some important moments?

Elizabeth Lotardo 21:13
How can you ask for opportunities instead of waiting for them, so getting to the root and then making a proactive behavioral plan to address that, instead of stewing in this sort of like General disgruntledness, is the first step in feeling better in the job you already have.

Chris Villanueva 21:27
I love that, and there’s so many opportunities, I mean, especially with larger companies, to make a lateral move or to to forge your own path within the organization. One reason I was so excited to talk to you versus, you know, I’m what I’ve been doing for the last 10 years. Oftentimes it’s like helping people move outside of their company, and that’s great. There’s certainly tons of opportunity there, and I’d recommend that for a certain subset of people who require it. But what about finding opportunities within your within your own organization? So I think that makes a lot of sense. But if we’re looking to get like a promotion or to maybe get a different position within our company, where would I start if I was looking to do something like that?

Elizabeth Lotardo 22:12
Well, there’s a big spectrum of what it means to get opportunities where you are. Sometimes it’s a small thing, like a stretch project or a particular initiative that you’re excited to work on that is outside of the context of your current job, and sometimes it is a title change, a complete role overhaul, moving to a different department. It can be either of those things or somewhere in between. If that is something that you would like to do, the first step is to be vocal about it. And before you say I don’t like my job. I want to go over here.

Elizabeth Lotardo 22:42
That’s not what I mean by being vocal about it. Being vocal about your desire to have an impact in another area is a good thing. Surfacing ideas for other avenues is a good thing. You don’t want to do it from a place of, I’m unhappy where I am so I want to move you want to do it from a place of there’s a big impact I can make over here, and here’s why I would be excited about that. So the positioning is really different, even though you’re both getting to that ultimate end point of a new opportunity where you are.

Chris Villanueva 23:12
Yeah, I love that. Makes a lot of sense. And is this a conversation with my boss? Or how would I How would I approach something like that?

Elizabeth Lotardo 23:19
It’s often a conversation with your boss or HR if you have HR resources. But again, I would encourage you to start small here, because as tempting as it is to say I’m unhappy in my role, I want to get a new role. Think about those smaller in between steps of Okay, say I am in marketing, I really want to go over to sales. How can I make a middle step there? How can I work on some collaterals for the sales team and start to network inside of that part of the organization? How can I raise my hand for some cross functional work and build my case over time, instead of making this giant jump.

Chris Villanueva 23:55
I once spoke with a client, you know, I like to follow up as much as I can with the resume writing clients to see what kind of results they have. And originally, this client was looking to land a director position outside of the company, and so we worked on the resume and their LinkedIn, but they ended up getting staying with the same company, the same large company, because their boss realized the value more like the value that they had to bring to the table after they started working on themselves and their personal brand and things like that, and now they’re happier than they probably would have been if they moved elsewhere. So I think that there’s so much value to doing what you’re saying and also like, hey, let’s revisit our LinkedIn profile every once in a while to update it with those projects that might be outside of our normal scope and grow that way too.

Elizabeth Lotardo 24:41
Absolutely, your personal brand is not something you turn on the second you enter the job market. It is something that you are always growing, even when you’re happy in your current role. So keeping that LinkedIn fresh, knowing that you should always be raising your hand for some of these cross functional initiatives, these high priority strategic projects. X, that is value that serves you your whole career. And then when you do really need it, you’re not trying to get all your ducks in a row haphazardly.

Chris Villanueva 25:09
So love that I want to talk about knowing your superpower here. You talk about knowing your superpower a bit in the book here, what you’re great at, what gives you energy, is also another thing that comes along with that. But how do we, how do we find out our superpower? Is this? Something that is what we do at work really well. What is this?

Elizabeth Lotardo 25:30
Sometimes it can be what you do at work really well. And if there are folks listening who are like, superpower, like, okay, so fluffy, yuck, I want to suggest that the reason this feels so fluffy and yuck too, this concept of knowing your superpower is one, your superpower has been deemed unimportant. In previous endeavors. Bosses were like, Oh, that doesn’t matter. Your parents are like, Oh, that doesn’t matter. So you’ve internalized that belief, right? Or two, you think that because you are not the single best in the world at this thing that surely it’s not your superpower. You’re really competitive type A I see you.

Elizabeth Lotardo 26:08
So first, let’s get over the hump that you do, in fact, have a superpower, even if that feels weird to you, how do you uncover what it is? Think about the feedback that you consistently get, not just project specific feedback. But through your career, what are the themes and the positive feedback in it? You gotta go beyond you know, you’re always on time, is it? You always ask the right questions. You bring new creative ideas to the table. You build relationships with everyone so well, get to those red threaded pieces of feedback that will clue you in to what your superpower is.

Elizabeth Lotardo 26:44
Also, to your point, pay attention to your energy. Where do you feel the most awake and motivated? Oftentimes, our energy is telling us what’s beneath the surface. When you are inspired, awake, engaged, motivated, what you’re doing is probably what you’re great at, or at least pretty good at, that can be another lens in determining what unique value do I bring to the table, and how can I showcase that inside my current organization or on my resume?

Chris Villanueva 27:12
I love that. I think the word superpower is, my opinion, underrated. I think it gives me lots of power and excitement just to think about. But I love that concept. I think it’s great. Now want to ask my famous tattoo question here in just a second, just to kind of close things out. But first I want to talk about our relationships with our bosses. I know that there are a lot of people who may be struggling with their relationship, and you know they say that. You know, people don’t quit their jobs. They quit their bosses, and it ends up being a really tough part of the job. But what would you say to the person who thinks that, okay, my boss sucks, or I’m having a really hard time with my boss, this is not going to get me anywhere, even though I may like my position right now. How do I how do I work with that?

Elizabeth Lotardo 28:00
Working with an imperfect boss is a career long skill, because even if you have a great boss right now, you’re surely going to work for a terrible one at some point. So being able to manage up is something we all need to know how to do, and to approach this relationship with your boss from a place of empowerment is imperative. Yes, they are one up from you in the org chart. But that doesn’t mean you’re powerless in this situation. There’s so much you can do to change this relationship. If you have a micromanager, set a checking cadence with them, even if it’s twice a day, so they start to leave you alone a little bit more.

Elizabeth Lotardo 28:38
If you have a boss who is always changing their mind, recap instructions when they give them to you, remind them of what they’re saying and why it matters if you have a boss who doesn’t answer your emails, build urgency in them. Show them what’s at stake if they don’t respond. So there’s always, no matter your boss’s idiosyncrasies, something you can do. Of course, there’s a small subset of really toxic leaders that you shouldn’t work for, but the vast majority of bosses are imperfect, and you have the ability to change that, even though you’re not in charge.

Chris Villanueva 29:09
Agreed. I love that so much. Elizabeth Lotardo, everyone, author of leading yourself. Okay, so I used to ask this question a lot, and I kind of like it. I’ll kind of, I’ll go back to it now. But if you could tattoo one statement for every career warrior listening to this episode, what would that be?

Elizabeth Lotardo 29:25
You’re asking the right person. I have a ton of tattoos, so I’ll tell you a good one, perfect. The dedication, the dedication to my book is to my son. And what I said is, you are never powerless, and that is the crux of leading yourself, whether you are up against a challenging job market, whether you are up against looming threats of technology, whether you are up against an imperfect organization and a job that’s kind of pissing you off, you are never powerless. You are always in the driver’s seat of your career and your ability to lead. Yourself will determine where you go.